I had a night to sleep on it, and no I'm still not a fan

Nino Colla | Thursday, December 11, 2008 | | | | | | | | Best Blogger Tips

"Gutierrez is the player that made this deal happen," Zduriencik said. "[Mets GM] Omar [Minaya] and I had a discussion late today, and I told him I had to get a center fielder in one of these deals and the guy I really want is in Cleveland."

As it turned out, the Mets and Indians also had been talking trade.

"Omar called me back a half-hour later and told me we could get the guy I wanted."

Yeah.... That's what Seattle Mariners GM Jack Zduriencik had to say about this deal...

There's potential there and I'm going to continue to scream about it. We gave up on Gutierrez too soon.

When you sit here and watch the Cleveland Indians, 162 games a year like we all do, you start to undervalue a player like Gutierrez.. You magnify his struggles and you start to say, this guy sucks, no one wants him.


I maintain my position on this. Franklin Gutiererz is the best all around defensive outfielder on this team. That's not a slight at Grady Sizemore, but rather a statement at just how good Grady is. He doesn't have the arm that Gutierrez does and I don't think he has AS MUCH god-given talent to go get the baseball at every single spot on the outfielder as Gutierrez does.

You can print this post out and save it, or bookmark it or whatever if you think I'm wrong. I truly believe that we made a mistake in getting rid of Gutierrez at this point. Not just getting rid of him, but for what we got and the situation we are in.

I'm not excited about Joe Smith or Luis Valbuena. I'm just not. They may turn out to be fine players... That's great.. But why would a team like Seattle trade a youngster like Valbuena, when their goal is to get as much young talent as possible?

All the players they gave up, aside from Valbuena, were washed up prospects or valuable major league pieces that another team can use.

JJ Putz: Obvious

Jeremy Reed: I mean, come on now, he was just a failure there in Seattle.

Sean Green: Again.. He's just another arm..

And then we get to Valbuena.

There is only a few reasons I can think of them giving him up.

A) Jose Lopez is their second baseman.. However they were considering moving him to first and letting this kid start at second next year.

B) He's not as good as he appears to be.

C) They REALLY like Franklin Gutierrez.

I'm going to go with C and a little bit of B.

One team's trash is another team's treasure.

I think we are going to regret this... If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.. You can throw all sorts of stats at me.. If you read this blog often, you'll know that I'm kinda half-and-half when it comes to statistics. I go with what I see and If I need stats to aid my argument, I'll use them.

But when I watch Franklin Gutierrez.. I don't see an All-Star, but I see a major league outifelder.

Better all around than Ben Francisco and way too valuable to be traded for a situational righty and a second baseman, that MIGHT pan out.


We have one of those.. His name is Josh Barfield and he's already shown he can do it at the Major League level. We don't need two second baseman that MIGHT pan out, we need one.

Like I said.. There needs to be more moves for this trade to make sense.. But I still am not a fan of it and think we were wrong to give up on Gutierrez this quickly.

Understand what I'm saying.. I'll be fine with the move organizationally if we make more moves to iron out everything. But I'm not fine with it in respect to giving up on Gutierrez. If that makes any sense.

Let's move on from this...

Here is what Mark Shapiro had to say on the deal.

Today is the Rule 5 Draft so we could probably lose another player.. Damnit..

Tony Lastoria doesn't think we will though.. Chuck Lofgren and Jordan Brown are probably the two most likely candidates. Lastoria got a little consensus from other organizations about the Indians list of players and it might not be as good as thought.


How do we know about people we don't see?

That's all I've got for now.. Kerry Wood is set to take his physical today, so remember that. Let's hope all goes well..

By the by.. CC for 161 million? Ya.. Good luck with that NY.


Charlie said...

While I'm not as high on this trade as Christina, here is something that might make everyone a little happier:

From Baseball Prospectus:

Acquired RHP Joe Smith from the Mets and 2B-L Luis Valbuena from the Mariners, and sent OF-R Franklin Gutierrez to the Mariners. [12/11]

Getting invited to the dance is half the trick, but credit the Indians for getting to the table and then walking away with goodies in exchange for offering up a bit they didn't really need. A team that has Grady Sizemore bouncing around between the gaps didn't really need Gutierrez for his best feature (playing center), and as nice as a platoon between Shin-Soo Choo and Gutierrez might have been in right field, having a perfect platoon partner for Choo isn't really as valuable as what the Tribe got in the trade, especially when finding someone else to fulfill the role shouldn't be that difficult. A bounce-back season from David Dellucci would come in handy as far as giving the Indians a nice threesome to stock the outfield corners (Dellucci, Choo, and Ben Francisco), but we'll see who else they scare up, and whether or not they make the roster space for a fifth outfielder. Travis Hafner's recovery from shoulder surgery will play a major factor, because if he's still broken, the Tribe's going to have to add a bat from somewhere. As is, if Hafner's back and bad, this isn't a gaggle of outfield cornermen so good that they will easily overcome that kind of lineup handicap.

What will help, however, is getting Valbuena, because he's a second-base prospect good enough across the boards to allow the team to make its long-anticipated infield realignment, with Asdrubal Cabrera going across the bag to short, and with Jhonny Peralta moving to his right as well and taking over at third. This should involve an improvement on defense, especially at short, where Cabrera should rank among the game's best fielders, but it also offers the possibility that the strong-armed Peralta might turn into an asset at the hot corner instead of a source of frustration at short. Offensively, it's not that much of a hit, either; setting aside an argument about the virtues of Valbuena over Casey Blake (or Andy Marte) for the moment, if Peralta's seasonal performance can hang around a .270 EqA—as it has in three of his four years as a regular—then he makes an entirely adequate third baseman, since that's around where you'll find the positional average for EqA the last several seasons, and costing $15 million over the next three years (counting a team option for 2011) for his age-27 through age-29 seasons seems like it could turn out much better than that.

So, a worthwhile third baseman and a quality shortstop—these are things the Indians already had, of course. The question is whether Valbuena's going to wind up giving the club that additional infielder who helps the unit improve from being below average offensively at two positions and stuck with a defensive liability at the third, to one that might be better than average at second, short, and third. The answer's an easy "yes," in that Valbuena is coming off of an excellent age-22 season in which he tore through the Southern League (.304/.381/.483), followed by a fine two months with Tacoma (.302/.383/.373), which led to a cup of coffee in Seattle where he didn't embarrass himself. Combined, he drew a walk in 11.3 percent of his PA in the minors, he swiped 18 bags in 26 attempts, and while I don't think he'll repeat his slugging .524 against Double-A right-handers at the major league level, he's not just some slappy master of the little man's offensive game. Whether he ends up platooned with Jamey Carroll, or relegating the veteran to a utility role, this was worthwhile deal for the Indians straight up, given the shape of the rest of the roster, if all they'd gotten was Valbuena for Gutierrez.

They didn't, though, they got Smith as well, which really makes the Indians the small stakes winner f this exchange. While he's a side-armer and therefore (almost automatically) a ROOGY, he was the Mets' best reliever last season, leading the team in 2008 in both Fair Runs Allowed and Adjusted Runs Prevented, and second on the team in WXRL. Add in the steep ground-ball tendencies, put him in a division where you have the right-leaning White Sox in their house of horrors, not to mention a Tigers' lineup stocked with Miguel Cabrera and Magglio Ordonez in the middle of the order, and yeah, I think we can make a case that Smith's going to be an incredibly useful set-up asset for this team and in this division.

That the Indians received the two of them for a player who was not nearly as useful to them as the Mariners seem to believe Gutierrez will be to them really makes this just a lovely little deal for Cleveland. As handy as Gutierrez is, when you're offered a younger starting second baseman, a guy who might be your primary set-up man, winding up with a better all-around infield and a stronger bullpen, and all the other guy wants is a platoon outfielder and defensive replacement, you don't get wrapped up asking why you were so lucky, you just make the deal.

npc29 said...

I think that guy is a little bit generous towards both players, but I'm probably being a little generous to Franklin, so like I've been saying at other places..

We really don't know, until we see guys for ourselves.

Anyway, Thanks for posting that Charlie.

Aside from suggesting David Dellucci could bounce back, which I supposed could happen, but is way too much to ask for, he made a lot of good points.